What ‘He’ Said….

~or “A Gathering of Blathering…”

I rarely visit the EVE Forums… if you ever want to find a reason to stop playing EVE, spend a few hours reading the forums… you will find enough pure puerile crap there to put you off the EVE playerbase forever.

But… one must keep in mind the forums are not representative of all the players. They, for the most part... not all... attract a certain kind of player. The whiner, the crybaby… those who don’t want to DO anything they just sit around and backseat-drive-CCP ‘cause they sooooo much smarter than ervybody else… and cannot wait to tell you all about how they are. Yuch.

However, if one is willing to wade hip deep through the mental swill you will find a few nuggets of real thought, an occasional post made by someone who is intelligent (not just thinks he is) and who actually cares about the game and realizes that the vast cesspool of :words: in the forums are at least skimmed by CCP Devs and it is one fairly effective way to reach them with a thought you had that actually makes sense.

In that light, for the very first time I read, or at least skimmed (due to the occasional ‘I threw up in my mouth a little at that one’) all of the current 31 pages of the Comments for the recent Dev Blog on the New Structures… SHAKE MY CITADEL 2015-05-12 17:50 By CCP Ytterbium.

I was looking for those gems, those rare nuggets of wisdom and insight… and I gave up. One can swallow but so much sewage before thowing up… turns out our minds work the same way…  one can read but so much crap until you just fukkin can’t bear it anymore… at least I can’t. But I did find something I had not expected which was to be my, and this posts, salvation… screw what the assholes who post on the forums say… what do the Devs say? Now THAT was a cat of a different color!

So from that point on I skimmed blithely through the pages and pages of posts… ignoring most of the bile easily… and in the end actually finding a post or two worth a read… and lo and behold most of them, the good, well written and well thought out posts were also noticed by CCP and that was where I found the Dev replies… kinda makes sense huh?

It was fun and informative. I simply skimmed until I hit a Dev post, read it, read back to see what prompted it and I found myself enjoying the forums for a change… will miracles never cease? I may have to make this a ‘thing’ I do here from time to time.

So… I have collected for your edification gentle reader, a snippet here and a quote in whole there of about 99% of the Dev responses in the comments thread on the Citadel Structure Dev Blog… a lot of very cool tidbits it too… makes for some interesting reading if I do say so myself…

First let me say that CCP Ytterbium seems really fond of bulleted or numbered lists of quick, to the point questions. If you are really interested in getting answers, try a clear list of questions, but…

1) don’t ask anything already asked-n-answered and

2) make your questions something that can BE answered… not “WAA! WAA!  Why You Suck at EVE??”

So I basically grabbed every list of questions and his list of answers… they are all the end of this post… That said, here is what I found…

FORCEFIELD:

…creating a replacement for force fields which works better (tm) and looks cooler. You will have a lot of the same benefits that the force field provides.

...docking puts you inside and safe, but you still see the grid outside the station.

The invulnerability link (we need a new name for this, taking suggestions) provides security while you are undocked and mobile around the structure.

Also yes docking games suck, so do force field games. We're accepting input on how we can setup the docking / invuln link to improve this, for all of space not just WH.

…it's going to be a new docked state, like a cross between docking in a station and sitting inside a POS shield.

ANCHORING/PERSONAL/CORP/DEPLOYMENT/ETC:

… we plan on allowing personal anchoring but you must be a player corporation, not NPC (so you can be wardecced).

We aware of the concern of invaders setting up a beach head, and are discussing with the CSM various options for changing anchoring behavior in wormholes to help with this.

…want most of those structures to be available in W-space, but with some special restrictions if need be.

There will be deployment restrictions, yes.

Mainly to avoid people to be insta-omg-BBQ-blapped when coming out of warp / stations, to avoid having space where structure defenses overlap or have them hidden inside landmarks or other anomaly sites.

STRUCTURES:

No definite price checks yet, but building an XL should have the same level of commitment as an outpost.

However, upgrading the thing with rigs is going to cost much more, since they're going to take over outpost upgrades / improvements.

Building and upgrading smaller structures will require far much less commitment and resources.

Small structures are going to be the old deployables (like containers, mobile tractor unit, bubbles etc...). But they won't be able to be fitted and won't have most of the advanced mechanics tied with M, L, X-L. They're deployables after all and are supposed to be very entry level to use.

So, technically, your "small citadel" would be a mobile depot, even if it doesn't really earn that title to be honest.

Storage, security and fitting service will be on the hull.

Corp offices, market, industry, clones etc will all be modules that have to be added and fueled.

…the amount of fuel will depend on the fittings, and they will remain online without fuel (the services will go offline though).

Ideally we want the structures to have the same SKIN system than ships.

Ultimately, it will depend on which kind of Service Module you fit on those structures. Want to do reactions? Fit the reactor module. May not be the best use of a Citadel though, since structures will have bonuses to specific fields, like ships, and Citadels will be bonuses towards defense, office and markets.

As mentioned in the previous blog and Fanfest presentation, we will most likely not replace outposts with those new structures. We will most likely reimburse outpost improvements and upgrades though

…new structures will use a completely new set of blueprints. We'll get rid of the old starbase structure modules (and reimburse them somehow) otherwise it's going to be a mess.

We thought about upgrading smaller sizes into bigger ones, but it adds extra complexity and doesn't really make sense. Should you be able to upgrade a frigate into a battleship if you put enough money into it? :P Both are built for different needs and purposes.

No factional variation. You won't have an Amarr, Caldari, Gallente or Minmatar variations. We want types to exist if they have a good role by themselves, not to fit some factional flavor. That doesn't mean they won't be influenced by some specific NPC corporation or faction, but they will not mandate structure number themselves.

Our current plan is to have a maximum limit of 8 high, 8 medium, 8 low, 8 service and 3 rig slots yes. That doesn't mean all of them will available at once (just like on ships) though.

Yes our current thinking is that you can access personal storage from the structure by being within docking range, same as POS.

Yes all these structures will get personal hangars.

DEFENSES/ENTOSIS/ETC.:

We are considering showing all structures on the on board scanner / sensor overlay allowing you to either warp directly to them or at least show you that structures are anchored in system so you can probe them down.

We are leaning towards just showing everything on the system overlay / onboard scanner with the ability to warp to them, or at the very least showing you how many structures of each size exist in system. They will show on the overview if you have access to them.

Unlike existing Starbases, you won't need multiple guys to operate the weapons. Those structures will be like ships, so you will only need one guy to control them all. The Starbase Defense Management skill will be reworked into something else or refunded when Starbases are removed.

We have been discussing the idea of a module that recruits pirate spawns to defend against people entosis linking your structure, but ultimately how customizable the timezone mechanics are will be the key here.

You would not rely in NPC defense at all, it would be a mild deterrent against a lone ship at best, the point is to show up for your timers and defend.

Like I said, it depends a lot on the timers and I'm assuming if you're solo you are in high sec, so in part wardec mechanics too. Fortunately the asset safety means although you lose your structure, you won't lose everything inside it.

If you cannot defend your structure though, you won't be able to keep it, but we want to give you every reasonable chance to defend it including the more casual players.

Vulnerability windows for structures will not necessarily be everyday, and the time to capture will vary depending on the structure and where it is anchored. We are very aware of the concerns of small groups having fewer people online to defend.

We're considering letting you scan who is docked inside these structures.

You won't be required to defend these everyday like sov, and the structure will drop fittings, fuel maybe in progress industry jobs etc.

You would protect a structure by using the Entosis module to prevent the opposing party to attack it during its vulnerability window. Or you would use the defenses fitted to kill them all while laughing like a maniac.

Accidental killings are a tricky business. We may either want to forbid you from locking and shooting neutrals in high-sec (permanent safety mechanic), or, if we can do it, allow you to do so but have CONCORD show up and destroy your structure if you commit an act of aggression. Depends on technical and design difficulties, too early to say so far. In all cases AoE weapons will not be allowed in high-sec for obvious reasons.

It's too early to say how NPC stations will be affected. We want those structures to be more efficient than NPC stations though, which either means boosting them or nerfing NPC stations.

Q’s and A’s

A FEW Q’s:

1. Larges; if we can’t dock caps in them then how will we keep them in WH space especially since it seems that XL's are going to replace stations and hence won’t really be allowed in WH's, plus they are supposed to be very expensive.

2. Vulnerability window; how will that work in WH space where we can’t claim SOV to boost our indices to reduce our vulnerability timer.

3. Will the office, cloning, and market functions work in WH space.

4. How will these structures accommodate or replace the current practice in WH's to have Squad POS's with members of each POS having a specific corp hanger division assigned to them and their alts.

EX: 10 members are living in a WH, each with multiple alts, there are two towers with 5 members assigned to each with secret passwords to restrict access to those assigned. In tower 1 Scott is assigned division 5 and the other members are assigned the remainder. Scott has 4 alts and each of them have the same hanger division assigned allowing for easy consolidation of modules and items such as PI and minerals/Ore. Will this functionality be preserved?

5. How will ship storage be maintained, will it be similar to the current SMA mechanics or will it be more like stations with hangers divided restricted to each character. Maybe a combination of each allow you the option to set up shared hangers?

A FEW A’s:

1. You would still have the invulnerability link, but yes, you are right, that's one of the arguments in favor to allow capitals in the Large Citadels.

2. What we are thinking so far is to have high-sec and W-space have higher indices that null-sec by default. So they will be naturally less vulnerable there. We are also thinking about modules, rigs and gameplay options to affect the vulnerability window, but at a price.

3. It depends on which kind of gameplay we want to have in W-space. So far, office and market functions look fine, cloning does not. Again, not set in stone at this point.

Sounds so complicated… How about we give you guys personal hangers instead, just like in NPC stations / outposts? And then, if you don't want people to dock in a specific structure you can set restrictions to do so.

MOAR Q’s: (only quoted questions that were answered)

1. Can I anchor them anywhere (apart from some proximity restrictions). Does it have to be moons or can I put them at any spot in space. Can I have more than one on one grid?

6. Will citadel be able to shot without anyone piloting the guns?

7. Will there be fuel requirement. And if yes how will it work when structure go offline in terms of destroying it with Entosis link? Today if I forgot to fuel my pos and some start to shoot it will give me still some time to log back, fuel and online it (risking being killed ofc). How this will work with Entosis link and offline structures?

8. Will there be a way for attacker to know how many people are inside structure docked and in what ships? (i.e. warping to a pos and assessing defense forces)

9. When docked will I be able to see space or will I have some sort of station interior? (HINT: We want to be able to see our surrounding, even if optionally)

10. X-L structures in WH?

11. How will refitting work for structures? If I'm under attack or about to be attacked can I swap my guns or something? Will there be a delay before new setup will take effect?

Pls add some loot drop. Wormholers don’t attack poses for "production materials" and can’t stay in system for weeks waiting for defenders to scoop loot.

MOAR A’s:

1.  So far, our plan is to have them anywhere yes, as long as proximity restrictions are respected.

6. Structures won't be able to shoot without someone manning the guns. As CCP Nullarbor mentioned, we have options under our sleeves to mitigate the risk from this change. Like having a reduced vulnerability window in specific areas, and / or be able to have NPCs spawn.

7. Fuel is so far only going to be needed to activate the service modules, those structure shouldn't use fuel on their own, please refer to our previous blog for more details.

8. Not sure about being able to know docked people, may be part of scanning mechanics, but open to discussion.

9. When docked you will see surrounding space.

10. Yes, ideally we want all structure sizes and types everywhere. There may be gampeplay restrictions on them and / or their respective modules if needed however.

11. Refitting will most likely drain capacitor (like on ships) so while you could do it in combat, this would not be advisable.

EVEN MOAR Q’s:

1) However, will destroying these new M-XL class structures generate killmails?

2) When it comes to finding them in space, I agree with other posters that they should not necessarily need probes to scan down. However, maybe make this dependent on a fitted module or rig, where by default you can find the structure via dscan and directly warping to it, but players can customize them to require probes to find--for a cost. Say, a "dscan inhibitor rig" which has relevant drawbacks (e.g., maybe weakens the defenses or reduces the benefits the citadel gives) but then adds the requirement of combat probes to find the structure?

3) When it comes to giving player citadels benefits for trading above NPC stations, I would suggest (as a trader myself) raising the default NPC tax rate on stations. I think something this harsh is needed because it would be the only thing that would--personally--get a player like myself to trade in a player-run market, or start my own. However, how will it work in the market itself? Will public citadels in the region with sell orders--say, seeing nanite paste--appear on the market search, where I can then set destination to this public citadel?

4) Would it be possible to anchor two citadels close enough to one another so that they can fight each other? Citadel versus Citadel pvp??! That would be pretty fun and would open up a lot of gameplay options, especially in WH evictions.

5) Any thoughts yet about how the market will be seeded with the relevant structures and modules? Regular blueprint sales in NPC stations, for instance, or will there also be any BPCs that drop, say, for a Serpentis L Citadel which, like faction towers currently, give certain bonuses above the regular towers etc.?

EVEN MOAR A’s:

1. Yes  (…destroying these new M-XL class structures generate killmails)

2. I think we will show them on the onboard scanner to warp to.

3. Market will come a bit later and we'll have a detailed blog about how that will work but yes we reduced market tax will be a good incentive to use a player built market over the NPC ones.

4. No, because of so many reasons…  (Citadel versus Citadel pvp??!)

5. That's a bit early to say, we have a lot of options for new industry here building the structures and all the modules.

AGAIN WITH THE Q’s:

1) However, will destroying these new M-XL class structures generate killmails?

2) When it comes to finding them in space, I agree with other posters that they should not necessarily need probes to scan down. However, maybe make this dependent on a fitted module or rig, where by default you can find the structure via dscan and directly warping to it, but players can customize them to require probes to find--for a cost. Say, a "dscan inhibitor rig" which has relevant drawbacks (e.g., maybe weakens the defenses or reduces the benefits the citadel gives) but then adds the requirement of combat probes to find the structure?

3) When it comes to giving player citadels benefits for trading above NPC stations, I would suggest (as a trader myself) raising the default NPC tax rate on stations. I think something this harsh is needed because it would be the only thing that would--personally--get a player like myself to trade in a player-run market, or start my own. However, how will it work in the market itself? Will public citadels in the region with sell orders--say, seeing nanite paste--appear on the market search, where I can then set destination to this public citadel?

4) Would it be possible to anchor two citadels close enough to one another so that they can fight each other? Citadel versus Citadel pvp??! That would be pretty fun and would open up a lot of gameplay options, especially in WH evictions.

5) Any thoughts yet about how the market will be seeded with the relevant structures and modules? Regular blueprint sales in NPC stations, for instance, or will there also be any BPCs that drop, say, for a Serpentis L Citadel which, like faction towers currently, give certain bonuses above the regular towers etc.?

HENCE MOAR OF THE A’s:

1. Why shouldn't they generate killmails? We know how much you guys like your killmail states.

2. Been answered before.

3. You've heard it first here guys! If we end up raising taxing on NPC stations, you will have Sven Viko VIkolander to thank for it! Twisted More seriously, player structures should be treated exactly like NPC stations if they're set as public, or if you have personal access to them.

4. Short answer: no. Long answer: noooooooooooooooooo. Because those don't use HP mechanics to be taken down, thanks to the Entosis module, what would you achieve by having them shoot each other? They will not be affected by raw damage.

5. We will most likely seed blueprints for Tech I versions from the NPC market. Faction variants will drop as loot and LP stores. Tech II variants can be invented. Those act as ships remember, thus they should be acquired in a similar way.

Lastly…

CCP Lebowski wrote:

Soldarius wrote:

“w-space was never meant to be occupied. You should not be living there.”

Obil Que wrote:

“I'll let you read CCPs thoughts on wormhole occupation yourself”

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns

I was going to post this myself!

Here’s the important part:

Quote:

“We are absolutely happy with how players have taken the wormhole feature and run with it over the last five years and we look forward to many more years of watching the adventures of the wormhole community with joy and awe. Anyone telling you otherwise is woefully mistaken.”

Personally I love wormhole space, and try to make sure all those crazy bob worshippers are always considered :)

Fly Reckless and see you in the Sky…  =/|)=