Thursday, March 26, 2015

“Is CCP Gonna Bust Da Bubble?”

~or “Woe Betide the POS Force Field…  Mebbe.”

For them as did not catch it, I recently commented on Sugar’s blog about the impeding removal of the POS Force Field… This was brought on by section 5 of the BACK INTO THE STRUCTURE Dev Blog… which I quote in toto here;

5.     Housing
Proper housing of player items and ships is a critical must-have if we wish those structures to be used over NPC stations. As such, we have different ideas up our sleeves to make that happen.

First, docking will still be available for the largest structures, as long as you have rights and your ship isn’t too big for this kind of purpose (we are looking at you, Supercarriers and Titans).

For the smallest structures, or if your e-peen is too large for docking, mooring will be preferred option. Replacing forcefield mechanics, this will make your ship invulnerable and not being able to be bumped as long as you are within a specific radius of the structure. Of course, when that is the case you will not be able to interact with the outside world either. The idea for the mooring capabilities are that they are configurable and have a finite limit, so multiple structures will be required to house particularly large fleets.”  (emphasis mine)

Yup… according to the Structures Dev Blog it seems they are seriously considering getting rid of the POS Forcefield, the POS Shield. As a player who has lived almost exclusively in POSes for going on 3.5 years of the 4 I have been ingame… I find this change personally abhorrent and unpleasant… and even more, unneeded.

Unlike my null brethren who screamed and rage quit with the advent of the Jump Changes, getting rid of the POS Shield is not a ‘game changer’ that fixes anything game breaking like Force Projection did… the extreme ease of overwhelping Force Projection made possible due to the way Jump mechanics used to be was wayyy broken… the POS Shield is not and does not affect the game in anywhere near the same way Force Projection did.

I commented on Sugar’s post, CSMX - Post #1, about this… there was some back-n-forth commenting on this then Halycon said;

Mostly it comes down to it cannot be fixed without a deep level rewrite of how the game functions and handles objects. I'm not talking horror code, I mean a complete rethink of the entire engine that handles objects in space, and therefore a complete ground up rewrite. The impact of that would be far beyond force fields. By it's very nature it'd change the entire balance of how Eve work; from flying ships, to weapons, to just about everything you'd do in space.


The devs have wanted to do away with force fields for the better part of a decade, but couldn't. And now that they finally can, they're gleefully going to kill it. I absolutely guarantee the day they turn them off for good, one of the coders is going to have a victory dance.” (emphasis mine)

In four years ingame I have never once heard any of this…

Then Sugar responds… twice…

Thank you Halycon.

They are trying to keep functionality (things floating in the shields are safe) with things like Intel and fix problems in Eve.

Force fields do not work. I'm sorry that I'm using the wrong words. But they don't work and they have to go. That means what you have now is going to be given to you in a different way.

Thianis the discovery phase of the details and everyone is trying to get it right but its not going to be the same. Your hangars should still be there for storage.

But shields are not staying.”  (emphasis mine)

Well… fuk me. But you know what, if it really is as stated, for the overall good and health of the game, well then I can and will, grudgingly granted, accept it… until I saw this…

During the EVE Online Fanfest 2015: Art & Graphics Panel I saw and heard this…

CCP BasementBen, Development Manager, showed us what you see in the title pic and here (25:52 to 26:50)… a short animation of an “improved” POS Shield… Hrm. Improved? Then CCP Mankiller, Lead Graphics Programmer, tells us it is “…basically a magnetic field with a bit of Northern Lights, or Aurora Borealis…” hmmmmm…

Then during the Q&A, here, (44:07 to 44:40) there was this question:

Hey guys, a quick question with regards to the POS Shields, umm, not sure if this is something that’s going to be covered next with the actual Structures discussion but, are we gonna see, when you’re taking out a POS, impacts on (the) actual shield instead of everything seemingly penetrate as if it’s not there and impacting on a tower, is that gonna change at’all and make it slightly more realistic?”

The response is… “Not for this, ah, this release.” then “Not for these POS Shields because the new structure things that’s the new thing to go and we will, most likely, do it for that yes.”

…and we will most likely do it for that, yes.” Well… seems the art dept missed the ‘POS Shields have to GO.’ CCP/CSM memo… and I seriously doubt this CCP, the CCP being run as it is NOW, a company that it taking bold aggressive ownership of its product… I sincerely doubt they are going to accidentally allow the art dept to showcase something that is not at least seriously on the table… ESPECIALLY something that has such an impact on one of the biggest changes to come to the game in its going on 12 year run, something as regards the changes to POSes, Null Sov and the New Structures… changes that the players have been waiting for, and begging for, for YEARS…

Oh I know, I know… there are those out there who will LOL and say, “Dude, CCP always steps on their own dick man! It’s just par for the course!” but I disagree. I’m not saying they can’t make a mistake… anyone can… but this is BIG. I sincerely doubt CCP Seagull would allow something that states pretty plainly that they are working on the POS Shield and it is gonna stay when the plan is to take it down.

As for me… I will hold out hope that CCP decides that the POS Shield had uses other than just defense of a POS… for me, for most of us who live out of a POS, meaning all of us who live in Anoikis (wormholes) the POS Shield is so much more than just a defense… The Great POS Window is one of the few truly enjoyable aspects of POSlife... unlike the poor sots in Empire Stations and Nullsuc Outposts we have a huge 360 deg omni-directional WINDOW... we have a 30km of our very own protected space in which we can fly around in and DO shit… move stuff around, goof off with each other, plan ops, reship, prep for fights or just sit back and chill after a day of whatever and enjoy the company of our friends and corpmates… with the best gods damned VIEW in all of EVE…

Sugar also said, "POS shields are they currently are are broken and problematic. They don't work with how Eve functions which leads us to the endless cases of POS shield exploits."

Then FIX POS shields FFS... but don't just get rid of them. Make them work as they should... Like the guy asked… make them the thing you target, make them the thing you shoot, make the POS Forcefield actually impenetrable and everything inside it untouchable until taken down, period.

"They don't work with how Eve functions which leads us to the endless cases of POS shield exploits."

Exploits? It’s EVE, in EVE finding and exploiting cracks in the game mechanics, or ‘gaming the game’ is usually called ‘emergent behavior’… and the POS Shields ‘don’t work with how EVE functions’ how? because Empire Stations and Nullsec Outposts don't have them? Empire Stations and Nullsec Outposts aren't POSes... of course they don't have them... they are huge and invulnerable...

POSes are a western frontier fort with a wooden palisade, a sturdy log cabin out on the prairie with gun ports in the shutters... Anoikis is not Nullsec... we are the wild west of EVE... let us BE the wild west of EVE... please.

Please don’t screw us over once again like you did with the effing Discovery Scanner… don’t burst our bubble.

Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky  =/|)=


  1. We are already losing it dude. We don,t even have a wh csm now.
    We can only keep pushing to get the same functionality.
    Besides even two step, the first wh csm said that they were planning of getting rid of it.
    Mooring as a concept has been going round the eve forums for long.
    In wspace we use it mainly for 3 things.
    1 fleet assemlbly, moving to get ready to move as a fleet(with scouts looking at us,seeing where we align)
    2 switching ships and refitting them while still on dscan (and visible to scouts) in a safe place
    3 just hanging out at a safe place(with scouts being able to see everyone who is awake at the pos

    if mooring does the same we will not lose any functions
    though fleet assembly will be very hard to implement ....

    1. Aside from the Structures dev blog and CSM Sugar Kyle's comments, granted based on insider knowledge, as re the removal of the POS Shield... I have not heard anything definitive from CCP directly on this as a permanent feature removal... and I would appreciate any links of refs to CCP Dev posts etc. on this.

      But I cannot help but wonder at CCP green lighting the Fanfest presentation of an improved POS Forcefield if it is slated to be removed... this makes as much sense as the Art & Graphics Group presenting idea's and concept art on the interior of stations... for WiS. But they don't do that because WiS is not on the table or even in discussion as a potential mechanic in EVE...

      But the Structure Changes ARE on-the-table and are a Big Thing and are being worked on as we speak... so why in the world would anyone at CCP ok a presentation showcasing something they KNOW they are taking away?? it simply makes no sense...

      And all arguments about "Well, CCP is really good at fucking up." don't mean anything to me now... Yes they have made some serious mistakes in the past... but I don't see that as their standard operating procedure anymore.

      Mooring does not 'replace' the functionality of the POS shield... it cannot do the same things... Mooring does not give you a 30km sphere you can be safe inside of... form up fleets inside of, goof off inside of, and one of the things I really like... see how your module affect your ships stats while fitting… When you fit a ship in a Station, you cannot turn the modules on and see the effects of shield and armor mods... but you can in a POS because you are undocked floating in space and yet as safe as if you were docked in a Station.

      Plus if we lose the Shield, we will be relegated to the same gods damned dock games as Empire and nullsec... where you undock and are immediately at risk of being bumped and (once the undock invulnerability wears off) attacked... Explain to me how this is better than what we have now? I know you can be bumped out of the POS Shield by a spai or awoxer, so how is trading one kind of risk of bumping for another better?? Keeping in mind that w/o the shield you won't be getting bumped by one awoxer you would be at risk of a whole gang of players, same as in Empire and null.

      You said we use it for mainly 3 things…

      (1) forming fleets; with the downside that cloaked scouts can watch us… so? In Empire and Null you have local, so you see a local spike and no additional ships on scan and guess what? Guys are logging in and fleeting up in station… and when they undock you better believe there are scouts and spais in the fleet watching and reporting…

      (2) swapping and refitting; but visible on dscan… so? Eve is not supposed to be perfectly safe man…

      (3) just hanging out; again still ‘visible’ to scouts and on dscan… again, so what? The intel you can get from us sitting in a POS requires active scouting… you wanna see who’s in the POS, gotta actually warp to it and risk bubble traps etc. to get that intel… no local.

      Your downsides all seem to be based on how stations and outposts work… my point is a POS is NOT a station or outpost… and it SHOULD work differently.

      You even said yourself… “…though fleet assembly will be very hard to implement.” you damn right… and how is that the same? How is that better that what we have now? It aint…

  2. I think CCP intends to remove POS shields and replace them with mooring.

    While personally I don't have an issue with POSes with the exception of POS trash on D-scanner I believe the problem it will address is the ability to bump ships out of a POS shield by spy alts. I assume with this new mechanic you'll either moored and not able to use your ship systems or un-moored and vulnerable to everyone.

    1. Again, I request any links or references to CCP Dev posts, comments, blogs, etc. on this.

      "I assume with this new mechanic you'll either moored and not able to use your ship systems or un-moored and vulnerable to everyone." This is better how? This is 'replacing' (as has been stated several times) the POS Shield how?? It isn't.

      All that is is how things work in Empire and Nullsec... and Anoikis is NOT Empire or Nullsuc and should not be forced to be like them... period.

  3. I think it is far too early to be grabbing for the pitch forks over POS shield removal.
    a) The full capabilities / mechanics of this anchor-able structures has not been specified in a dev blog.
    b) The mentioned that POS removal will only occur once the existing functionality has been moved over to the new system which I suspect is more than a year and less than 2 years. Plenty of time for feedback.

    You may even be able to anchor the XL structures with all the protection of an outpost, we just don't know.

    A final note if you want people to read / comment on your blog, try to be a little less aggressive to varied opinions

    1. Yeah... I agree, it's early yet... but I dl feel quite strongly about this mechanic, didn't realize how strongly until it was threatened actually. While there is a lot that is clunky and difficult about POS life... I actually prefer it, greatly prefer it, over Stations and Outposts... by a very wide margin.

      And yeah, I do get sorta up on my soapbox a bit... don't 'mean' to offend, just tend to wear my heart on my keyboard as twere... =\

      Thanx for commenting anyway... it is appreciated, and I'll try and tone it down... =]

  4. I also remember comments by Greyscale stating one of his goals was to get rid of POS shields. Just like one of his stated goals was to nerf all passive income into the ground. IIRC, his rambling on POS shields was that it was "bad code" plus he didn't like that players could do stuff inside a shield.

    And, no, I can't get you a link. Google it :)

    Now that Greyscale is thankfully gone, I have no idea how deep his get rid of POS shields (and IIRC, it was part and parcel of the get rid of POS code and redo from scratch) runs.

    I'm not sure where the problem is with POS shields, though. If there are exploits, then CCP should fix them (Titans and bumping, I'm looking at you). One thing that taking away POS shields will do is take away - or better yet force - game play onto players that isn't the case now. Under the current system, if I don't want/need an SMA at a POS, for whatever reason, I don't have to, but the safe harbour of the POS shield lets me sit there in my ship, interacting with the POS in safety.

    Just like I can sitting inside a station or outpost.

    We already can't do some things in a POS that can be done in a a station or outpost (and that's okay), but it seems to me that taking away the safety of POS shields is taking away one of the basic, basic functions of a POS. Now, I know the new mooring/docking modules will allow me to moor/dock my ship safely, but again, what if I don't want a mooring/docking module at my structure? If it's a moon mining structure, or drug manufacturing or industry or research structure, I don't necessarily need the new SMA equivalent, especially if I already have a living POS (like we do in wormholes). All I need is to be able to safely interact with the POS/structure without fear of being bumped or whathaveyou.

    Also, it's worth it to remember that the new POSes/structures/whatever won't require an entosis link to make them shootable; someone who wants to shoot at my POS only needs to do what the do today; shoot at it. So, while having a POS shield makes me 'safe', it's a qualified 'safe'.

    With the talk about the new mooring structure/SMA replacement having a certain radius within which a ship is invulnerable, I have to ask how is that different from the current POS shield? It isn't, functionally, with the major exception that, from the limited information available, it seems that if I want the POS shield I have now, I will be forced to have an SMA equivalent even if I don't want or need one.

    I think CCP has swung the pendulum a bit too far in it's desire to fix POSes. It's not just the POS shield, but the fact that towers are going away and instead of having several structures functioning together as a sort of harbour in space, it looks very much to me like we'll have a collection of huts that we'll have to defend individually rather than the collective defence we have now.

  5. One comment about the structure dev blogs.

    In Sugar's in-game channel the other night, I made a comment that it's hard to give feedback when we have so little detail. Sugar's response was emphatic and it was that what we need to do is post on the feedback threads what it is we want out of these structures and CCP will toss it all into the mix, chew on it and make decisions.

    1. Actually first posting I did about this was on the Comments forum... and I probably will continue to do so until whatever we end up with drops... and then, if it is a removal of the POS Shield... then I will keep right ob posting....

  6. We also working on some soundboards for structures, Tur. I'll make sure to poke you to sign up.

    1. Sorry posting this so late Sugar, been home sick w/ flu... and simply have not been online much.

      Thanx! and I will look for your pings...


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