28 Years of Night School…

~or “BB:47… Is EVE Too Complex?”

Ripard Teg over at Jester's Trek wrote a post called “Don't Do Anything Stupid” and offered it as the basis of a Blog Banter as he is curious what others feel on the subject. Personally, I'm restarting manufacturing that I haven't done in years and finding myself having forgotten almost as much as I knew the first time around.

So this month's Blog Banter will gravitate around knowledge, specifically EVE knowledge. Some examples of topics to cover:

-Is EVE too complex for one person to know everything?

-Is it, in fact, too complex for one person to know everything about one topic?

-How do you maintain any knowledge or skills related to EVE over time with breaks and expansions?

-Does CCP do a sufficient job documenting the features of the game, and if not, what could they do better?

-How does one determine where the gaps in their knowledge even are?

==========================================

No… and yes. As in most things the answer is somewhere in the grey chewy center. And once again we are faced with a banter that is HIGHLY subjective. This is not an Are Missiles Better Than Guns topic… You can compare missiles to guns and bring out reams of hard data for specific ships, fits and situations. You can argue heatedly with FACTS at your disposal… not so with the far more nebulous “Is EVE ‘too’ complex?” Complex for whom? Complex based on what criteria? Says who? You? Oh yea?? You and who’s ARMY ya troll!?! Getbackinyerdaddysbasementyayutz!

Asking if EvE is “too” complex is like seeking the answer to one of modem life’s greatest riddles… “Who would win… Superman or Mighty Mouse?”  =P  In other words, EvE is a conundrum, written as a riddle, wrapped in an enigma and available as a boxed set for only 2 PLEX!!

OK, ok… Is EVE too complex? Nope, not to me. As a matter of fact, I’m worried it has been getting a bit watered down lately…

Since Odyssey dropped I have been propagandizing and proselytizing against the Great Scanning Nerf of 115… changes to the mechanics of Probes Scanning and the addition of the Discovery Scanner that IMHO, have badly and most importantly unnecessarily nerfed scanning in general and basically ruined Exploration specifically.

See:

“To Boldly Go... to the Back ofthe Queue for the Next Site...” and

“Keep the unknown unknown: disablethe discovery scanner in w-space.”

Then there are those such as Jester who debate “Useless Complexity” vs “Useful Complexity”, again a totally subjective determination. Take for instance this hypothetical case…

A 5 year Carebear Industrial toon. Mined, refined and researched… bought and sold ores, minerals and mods and produced and sold hundreds of Dominixes over 5 years… But never even once sat in one, fitted one, ran a mission or ratted in a belt.

A 5 year PvPbear Pirate toon. Practiced flying and PvP and skilled into ALL T2 fit T2 frigs, crusiers and BCs, etc. Learned fits and tricks and ganks and traps… he flies solo, gang and fleet PvP in Hi, lo, null and negsec. Thousands of kills, under 100 losses and most of them in the early years… now rarely loses as long as he can control the engagement.

The carebear whines and moans about the carpal inducing clickfest of research and PI… “Too gods damned complex!” he cries. I want my bacon and I want it NOW!

The PvPbear whines and moans that scanning down ships to grief is WAYYY too complex and time consuming… it need to be EASIER so “I don’t have to waste so much time that my targets have a chance to get away!” he cries. I want my bacon and I want it NOW!

According to all the reputable sources I can find, if a single player wanted to skill a toon to L5 in EVERY skillbook available in EvE today, it would take over 28 years… Twenty Eight Real Years…

Start today, assuming NO changes to skills (yea right) and sometime in 2041 you will Level Out. 2041… I’ll be 80 years old then… Even if you opened your EvE account in ’03 you still will not Level Out until 2031… sheesh.

Tur has been constantly skilling for 2.5 years now (40+mSP) so I have (assuming NO changes to skills, yea right) 25.5 years to go so that’s what… 2038, I’ll be well into my 77^th year by then, drooling all over the senso-pad, still playing EvE… probably mining in some newfangled damned Jovian/Ore hybrid with them there Hyper-whatchmacallit modules that let ya mine up a whole AB… cloaked and off grid… But keep spamming the Ominsweep damn yer eyes! ‘cause they got them ‘pinger probes’ now that let them effin Griefers find ya… sonny!

So, (1) Is EVE too complex for one person to know everything?

Of course it is… as it should be, EvE is not ‘just‘ a game… EvE is virtuality. A real virtual life… and life is full of unnecessary, tedious and frustrating complexity… gives ya something to do and a reason to raise your fist to the sky and curse the gods! Or conversely to sit at the computer and type up a sharply worded email to those idiots at CCP… six of one half dozen of the other.

(2) Is it, in fact, too complex for one person to know everything about one topic?

Probably not… given time and an unchanging ‘verse… but CCP aint that dumb, they keep messing with us and throwing us curves and stirring the pot… Keeping this crazy ‘verse we live and die in ever new and frustrating… and I love ‘em for it.

(3) How do you maintain any knowledge or skills related to EVE over time with breaks and expansions?

Again, simple… You don’t... the ONLY constant in any world is change. Wait long enough and ALL of this will transform, morph, evolve, devolve, be wiped out by asteroids, DIAF and be reborn anew and one day… one fine day, the Sun, our lifegiver, will bloat red and huge in the sky and eat her inner children. CCP somehow knows this and they are making sure that our private virtual verse follows the same natural rules… and I love ‘em for it.

(4) Does CCP do a sufficient job documenting the features of the game, and if not, what could they do better?

Nope… documentation as regards the mechanics in EvE sucks just as bad as using the [enter religious text (book/scroll/whatever) of your choice here] to explain physics… again, a reflection of the real world in a virtual verse… It is up to us to watch the apple fall and ‘discover’ why… again, IMHO, just as it should be.

(5) How does one determine where the gaps in their knowledge even are?

Not to get iterative but… You can’t as you are going to spend all of your time playing catch up and seek-the-truth and experimenting and trying shit out… At best you will stumble on them as we all do… when told by your FC to use this fit “[open link to Fleet Doctrine *ship*]” and your response is, “Can someone tell me what all the Red ‘X’es are about?” IE Get out there, stumble around and learn.

So… Is EvE ‘too’ complex? Nope… but its players sure as hell can be. =]

Fly Safe and see you in the Sky  =/|)=

=========================================

"Blog Banters" are brought to you by the good folks at the...

"Inner Sanctum of the Ninveah" by Kirith Kodachi

“The brainchild of the Blogfather, Crazy Kinux, blog banters are single subjects discussed across the EVE blogging community. It encourages the sharing of ideas and cross-pollination of readership. All in all a healthy thing for a community.“

The Ballad of Pell Helix

The Jokers Holy Rolling Song 
(to the tune of the Theme from Rawhide)
[scroll to the bottom to start video w/ music]

Yaaa!

Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'
Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'

Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'

Keep scannin', scannin', scannin',
Though we keep a trollin',
Keep them scouts a scannin' Pell died!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just Scan, Jump and Roll 'em,
Soon we'll be romin’ Null to High.
The FC’s misscalculatin'
his burnt corpse will be floatin',
be floating at the place where he died.

Scan 'em down, Warp 'em in,
Jump 'em in, Scan 'em out,
Hole’s SHIT, ROLL ‘em out, Pell died!
BS in! Orca in! jump HOT!
BS out, Orca out, Dread Jump In!
Pell Died!

Rollin', rollin', rollin'

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Pell Died!


[spoken]

Scan em OUT!  Warp em IN!


Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'

Keep rollin', rollin', rollin'

The killboards are a swollen
Keep them Holes a rollin'
Pell died!

Through bubbles, traps and weather
Hell-bent for Empire.
Wishin' Ol Pell was by our side.
All the Fights he is missin.
Good battles, lewt, and ISKies,
Are waiting at the end of the pipe.

Scan 'em down, Warp 'em in,
Jump 'em in, Scan 'em out,
Hole’s SHIT, ROLL ‘em out Pell died!
BS in! Orca in! jump HOT!
BS out, Orca out, Dread jump in, Pell Died!

Pell died!

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'

Fly safe and see you in the Sky =/|)=

Still a Noob After All this Time…

~or, I Need to Emo Tank Better.

This has been a hard post for me to write. I have had to ‘fly careful’ as I approached this introspective topic… orbiting in carefully from long range… You see it seems I’m steppin on toes lately, and it aint the first time… and I just don’t get it.

Corp & Alliance COMMS whether on Team Speak, Mumble or Ventrilio… Voice over IP Real Time Communications are a key utility that allows players to work together as a group with common goals. Ingame no matter where corpmates and Allies are, action or reaction to events can be vastly more effective and in Fleet, whether mining or in sites and most especially in PvP, voice comms are absolutely essential. Of all the labels you can slap on EvE, IMHO ‘social’ is the most important and real time voice comms are a huge aspect of that sociality.

Chat, the typed in kind, has its place but chat does not convey urgency, or a sense of emotional context. Chat aslo is a hands on, or I should say hands off your ships controls, method of communication... not inducive to winning or even surviving in PvP...

Due to the audible nature of voice comms, during Ops many aren’t watching chat windows as closely so sometimes stuff you type in chat gets missed… and that can be tough if it is at all important, and stuff typed in chat can be misinterpreted without the verbal cues the human voice adds.

This is where ‘emoticons’ come from… I personally hate the std :) because almost all systems now immediately convert that into the ‘smiley’ and that it not what I typed… so I use  =]  instead. It does not get instantly converted and I actually kinda like it more. But the point is, you if add one of those like a period to “Damn yer an idiot man.” =] this is an attempt to convey a sense of the sound of your voice grinning as you say that to your friend who just derped up really badly… without it, there is the possibility you were serious, but no way to know whether you were or not, and that is a totally different thing.

I have considered myself a decent communicator and have been told by others I respect that I am. I love to communicate, I love to converse and to write and in my writing I love most off all when I get feedback. I like communicating so much I have fought all my life to slow down and stay just a ‘part’ of the conversation and not unintentionally try dominate it. I do not know everything and I am keenly aware of that fact, but like anyone who is fascinated by something, when I learn new things I like to pass them on and I am always seeking new knowledge.

These two things above have been at odds during my time in EvE, and I am not taking about just recently either. My desire to join in the dialog on voice comms ingame and my desire for knowledge or most especially my lack of same… well, along the way I have inadvertently trod rather heavily it seems on some toes… and it bothers me greatly for I really am trying very hard to fit in.

I like and respect most all of the guys I have flown with in EvE. In the last two and a half years I have met very very few who are not intelligent, highly capable and social people. But one thing causes me some real problems… trolling, especially trolling noobs or players who are new to this or that or simply who don’t know as much about the game as others.

All my life I have not understood the joy many if not most guys get from being verbally rude or even cruel to each other, sometimes extremely so. I can never know if they mean it or are just putting me on. I understand that it is supposed to mean you are accepted and one-of-the-guys because if they didn’t like you, they wouldn’t kid around with you. But, I just don’t get it. I have spent my whole life trying to fit in in this regard… and I still don’t do it very well.

I tend to take things and people and what they say to me at face value. I am honest in my dealing with others, I find it very difficult to do otherwise. There are many who will troll you pretty hard but honestly do not mean real harm… And often these are the guys you want to fly with, your friends and corpmates and Allies.

I want to do well when in Fleet, and communication is as I stated above absolutely key… In all the times I have been in Fleet comms since I joined EVE almost everyone without exception understood that during PvP comms needs to remain clear for the FC as he works with scouts, sub-commanders and the fleet as a whole.

‘Chatter’ or the usual banter and discussion and joking around that goes on when things are quiet is at a minimum or nonexistent during all PvP combat phases… from first report of sighting to initial contact through engagement to disengagement to warp off... This is referred to as Communications Discipline. But during the in-between times Comms Discipline is relaxed to nonexistent and comms can be full of any and all topics from the days events, to politics in EvE, to serious discussions of ships and fits, to just yanking each other’s chains a bit.

But in EvE we also have a middle ground… PvE, missions in Empire and sites in holes. In these the risk is not nearly as high and in the right fleet under the right FC risk can be almost totally mitigated aside from unexpected or unforeseen events such as someone DCing (DisConnecting from the game IE a client crash or loss of internet connectivity) or an Anoikis Hot Drop…

A DC drops the ship in question out of fleet and leaves it unpiloted… in a site or a higher level mission this can result in the loss of the ship if it is targeted before it warps off. And in Anoikis, in a C6 that is at the least extremely likely. Another possible risk is the Anoikis Hot Drop where another corp/Alliance sneaks in and logs off a fleet, unbeknownst to the inhabitants (we have done this) and on logging in instead of ships jumping in through a watched hole or a newly spawned hole, you have a true Surprise Ambush and it can be devastatingly effective…

Aside from these types of risks PvE, even in a C6 against the toughest AI in the game, can be… well, a little boring. It can be very rote… As a matter of fact it goes the fastest if done exactly by the numbers… when everyone works together, knows their jobs and the FC is hitting the marks right on time every time. But the checklist nature of site running leads inevitably to, as I said, it being a little boring… hence often comms discipline gets very relaxed and ‘chatter’ is common.

This can unintentionally get in the way of the FCs job sometimes and you need an FC who has his head in the game and is able to command respect and get things quieted down with a short “Break, Break.” give his orders, then let things go back to normal… Two things can get in the way there… (1) The FC like everyone else can get just as bored and distracted as the rest of us (as FC he should not allow himself to but we are only human) and (2) one must always remember, this is a game.

As ‘real’ as EvE may seems or as CCP wants it to seem, it is not… it is a game we all play for enjoyment and a large part of that enjoyment is the social aspect… and comms is a large part of that socializing… so during sites comms can get a little shitted up which ‘can’ interfere a bit with how things get done, especially if the FC is as bored as everyone else and has an expectation that all of us know our jobs almost to the point of not needing to be told when to hit the mark, and to a large degree most do… unless you are new.

Then mistakes can be made… sometimes costly mistakes. And the seasoned players are not going to blame themselves… they knew what they were supposed to do and that expectation carries over even if you are new and actually don’t know what you were supposed to do or if, due to chatter, you didn’t clearly hear the FCs orders… and it can suck, it can really suck to be you at that point. Especially if you don’t hold your temper and get a little ragey or go all dramalama about it… which I am very sorry to say I am a little guilty of… =\

And holding a new guy to the same expectations as a veteran is not intentional… it’s just simple human nature. We look down on those who are not as ‘good’ as us at this or that… we make fun of them and call them names… Noob, pubbie, scrub, loser… it’s a PvP verse and PvP is everywhere… on comms as it is in space.

This does not mean there are not guys who will bend over to help a new guy… there are and some of them are really great mentors. They just want to see the new guys step up and learn fast and when they do, then ‘trust’ can be considered… but only after it’s earned. Until then you are on the hook for your actions even if you didn’t know exactly what to do.

But… I’ll hang in there and keep trying to learn… I am doing so many things I have never done before in EvE now… I have never flown Amarr ships until now… never flown Dictors… never flown Logi… never ever flown in a fleet of more than like 10 guys and that was a mining fleet in Null. Who knew after two and a half years in EvE... I would still be a noob?

Fly Safe and see you in the Sky  =/|)=