~or “A Gathering of Blathering…”
I rarely visit the EVE Forums… if you ever want to find a
reason to stop playing EVE, spend a few hours reading the forums… you will find
enough pure puerile crap there to put you off the EVE playerbase forever.
But… one must keep in mind the forums are not representative
of all the players. They, for the most part... not all... attract a certain kind of player. The whiner, the
crybaby… those who don’t want to DO anything they just sit around and backseat-drive-CCP
‘cause they sooooo much smarter than ervybody else… and cannot wait to tell you
all about how they are. Yuch.
However, if one is willing to wade hip deep through the mental
swill you will find a few nuggets of real thought, an occasional post made by
someone who is intelligent (not just thinks he is) and who actually cares about
the game and realizes that the vast cesspool of :words: in the forums are at least
skimmed by CCP Devs and it is one fairly effective way to reach them with a
thought you had that actually makes sense.
In that light, for the very first time I read, or at least
skimmed (due to the occasional ‘I threw up in my mouth a little at that one’)
all of the current 31 pages of the Comments
for the recent Dev Blog on the New Structures… SHAKE MY
CITADEL 2015-05-12 17:50 By CCP Ytterbium.
I was looking for those gems, those rare nuggets of wisdom
and insight… and I gave up. One can swallow but so much sewage before thowing
up… turns out our minds work the same way… one can read but so much crap until you just fukkin
can’t bear it anymore… at least I can’t. But I did find something I had not expected
which was to be my, and this posts, salvation… screw what the assholes who post
on the forums say… what do the Devs say? Now THAT was a cat of a different color!
So from that point on I skimmed blithely through the pages and
pages of posts… ignoring most of the bile easily… and in the end actually
finding a post or two worth a read… and lo and behold most of them, the good,
well written and well thought out posts were also noticed by CCP and that was
where I found the Dev replies… kinda makes sense huh?
It was fun and informative. I simply skimmed until I hit a Dev post, read it, read back to see what prompted it and I found myself enjoying the forums for a change… will miracles never cease? I may have to make this a ‘thing’ I do here from time to time.
So… I have collected for your edification gentle reader, a snippet here and a quote in whole
there of about 99% of the Dev responses in the comments thread on the Citadel
Structure Dev Blog… a lot of very cool tidbits it too… makes for some
interesting reading if I do say so myself…
First let me say that CCP Ytterbium seems really fond of
bulleted or numbered lists of quick, to the point questions. If you are really
interested in getting answers, try a clear list of questions, but…
1) don’t ask anything already asked-n-answered and
2) make your questions something that can BE answered… not “WAA! WAA!
Why You Suck at EVE??”
So I basically grabbed every list of questions and his list
of answers… they are all the end of this post… That said, here is what I found…
FORCEFIELD:
…creating a replacement for force fields which works better (tm) and looks cooler. You will have a lot of the same benefits that the force field provides.
...docking puts you inside and safe, but you still see the grid outside the station.
The invulnerability link (we need a new name for this, taking suggestions) provides security while you are undocked and mobile around the structure.
Also yes docking games suck, so do force field games. We're accepting input on how we can setup the docking / invuln link to improve this, for all of space not just WH.
…it's going to be a new docked state, like a cross between docking in a station and sitting inside a POS shield.
ANCHORING/PERSONAL/CORP/DEPLOYMENT/ETC:
… we plan on allowing personal anchoring but you must
be a player corporation, not NPC (so you can be wardecced).
We aware of the concern of invaders setting up a beach head,
and are discussing with the CSM various options for changing anchoring
behavior in wormholes to help with this.
…want most of those structures to be available in W-space,
but with some special restrictions if need be.
There will be deployment restrictions, yes.
Mainly to avoid people
to be insta-omg-BBQ-blapped when coming out of warp / stations, to avoid having
space where structure defenses overlap or have them hidden inside landmarks or
other anomaly sites.
STRUCTURES:
No definite price checks yet, but building an XL should
have the same level of commitment as an outpost.
However, upgrading the thing with rigs is going to cost
much more, since they're going to take over outpost upgrades /
improvements.
Building and upgrading smaller structures will require far
much less commitment and resources.
Small structures are going to be the old deployables
(like containers, mobile tractor unit, bubbles etc...). But they won't be
able to be fitted and won't have most of the advanced mechanics tied with M, L,
X-L. They're deployables after all and are supposed to be very entry level to
use.
So, technically, your
"small citadel" would be a mobile depot, even if it doesn't really
earn that title to be honest.
Storage, security and fitting service will be on the hull.
Corp offices, market, industry, clones etc will all be
modules that have to be added and fueled.
…the amount of fuel will depend on the fittings, and they
will remain online without fuel (the services will go offline though).
Ideally we want the structures to have the same SKIN
system than ships.
Ultimately, it will depend on which kind of Service Module
you fit on those structures. Want to do reactions? Fit the reactor module. May
not be the best use of a Citadel though, since structures will have bonuses to
specific fields, like ships, and Citadels will be bonuses towards defense,
office and markets.
As mentioned in the previous blog and Fanfest presentation, we
will most likely not replace outposts with those new structures. We will
most likely reimburse outpost improvements and upgrades though
…new structures will use a completely new set of
blueprints. We'll get rid of the old starbase structure modules (and
reimburse them somehow) otherwise it's going to be a mess.
We thought about upgrading smaller sizes into bigger ones,
but it adds extra complexity and doesn't really make sense. Should you be
able to upgrade a frigate into a battleship if you put enough money into it?
:P Both are built for different needs and purposes.
No factional variation. You won't have an Amarr, Caldari,
Gallente or Minmatar variations. We want types to exist if they have a good
role by themselves, not to fit some factional flavor. That doesn't mean they
won't be influenced by some specific NPC corporation or faction, but they will
not mandate structure number themselves.
Our current plan is to have a maximum limit of 8 high, 8
medium, 8 low, 8 service and 3 rig slots yes. That doesn't mean all of them
will available at once (just like on ships) though.
Yes our current thinking is that you can access personal
storage from the structure by being within docking range, same as POS.
Yes all these structures will get personal hangars.
DEFENSES/ENTOSIS/ETC.:
We are considering showing all structures on the on board
scanner / sensor overlay allowing you to either warp directly to them or at
least show you that structures are anchored in system so you can probe them
down.
We are leaning towards just showing everything on the
system overlay / onboard scanner with the ability to warp to them, or at
the very least showing you how many structures of each size exist in system.
They will show on the overview if you have access to them.
Unlike existing Starbases, you won't need multiple guys to
operate the weapons. Those structures will be like ships, so you will only
need one guy to control them all. The Starbase Defense Management skill
will be reworked into something else or refunded when Starbases are removed.
We have been discussing the idea of a module that
recruits pirate spawns to defend against people entosis linking your structure,
but ultimately how customizable the timezone mechanics are will be the key
here.
You would not rely in NPC defense at all, it would be
a mild deterrent against a lone ship at best, the point is to show up
for your timers and defend.
Like I said, it depends a lot on the timers and I'm
assuming if you're solo you are in high sec, so in part wardec mechanics
too. Fortunately the asset safety means although you lose your structure,
you won't lose everything inside it.
If you cannot defend your structure though, you won't be
able to keep it, but we want to give you every reasonable chance to defend
it including the more casual players.
Vulnerability windows for structures will not necessarily
be everyday, and the time to capture will vary depending on the
structure and where it is anchored. We are very aware of the concerns of
small groups having fewer people online to defend.
We're considering letting you scan who is docked inside
these structures.
You won't be required to defend these everyday like sov, and
the structure will drop fittings, fuel maybe in progress industry jobs
etc.
You would protect a structure by using the Entosis module
to prevent the opposing party to attack it during its vulnerability window. Or
you would use the defenses fitted to kill them all while laughing like a
maniac.
Accidental killings are a tricky business. We may either
want to forbid you from locking and shooting neutrals in high-sec (permanent
safety mechanic), or, if we can do it, allow you to do so but have CONCORD
show up and destroy your structure if you commit an act of aggression.
Depends on technical and design difficulties, too early to say so far. In
all cases AoE weapons will not be allowed in high-sec for obvious reasons.
It's too early to say how NPC stations will be affected. We
want those structures to be more efficient than NPC stations though, which
either means boosting them or nerfing NPC stations.
Q’s and A’s
A FEW Q’s:
1. Larges; if we can’t dock caps in them then how will we
keep them in WH space especially since it seems that XL's are going to replace
stations and hence won’t really be allowed in WH's, plus they are supposed to
be very expensive.
2. Vulnerability window; how will that work in WH space
where we can’t claim SOV to boost our indices to reduce our vulnerability
timer.
3. Will the office, cloning, and market functions work in WH
space.
4. How will these structures accommodate or replace the
current practice in WH's to have Squad POS's with members of each POS having a
specific corp hanger division assigned to them and their alts.
EX: 10 members are living in a WH, each with multiple alts,
there are two towers with 5 members assigned to each with secret passwords to
restrict access to those assigned. In tower 1 Scott is assigned division 5 and
the other members are assigned the remainder. Scott has 4 alts and each of them
have the same hanger division assigned allowing for easy consolidation of
modules and items such as PI and minerals/Ore. Will this functionality be
preserved?
5. How will ship storage be maintained, will it be similar
to the current SMA mechanics or will it be more like stations with hangers
divided restricted to each character. Maybe a combination of each allow you the
option to set up shared hangers?
A FEW A’s:
1. You would still have the invulnerability link, but
yes, you are right, that's one of the arguments in favor to allow capitals in
the Large Citadels.
2. What we are thinking so far is to have high-sec and
W-space have higher indices that null-sec by default. So they will be naturally
less vulnerable there. We are also thinking about modules, rigs and
gameplay options to affect the vulnerability window, but at a price.
3. It depends on which kind of gameplay we want to have
in W-space. So far, office and market functions look fine, cloning does not.
Again, not set in stone at this point.
Sounds so complicated… How about we give you guys
personal hangers instead, just like in NPC stations / outposts? And then, if
you don't want people to dock in a specific structure you can set restrictions
to do so.
MOAR Q’s: (only quoted questions that were answered)
1. Can I anchor them anywhere (apart from some proximity
restrictions). Does it have to be moons or can I put them at any spot in space.
Can I have more than one on one grid?
6. Will citadel be able to shot without anyone piloting the
guns?
7. Will there be fuel requirement. And if yes how will it
work when structure go offline in terms of destroying it with Entosis link?
Today if I forgot to fuel my pos and some start to shoot it will give me still
some time to log back, fuel and online it (risking being killed ofc). How this
will work with Entosis link and offline structures?
8. Will there be a way for attacker to know how many people
are inside structure docked and in what ships? (i.e. warping to a pos and
assessing defense forces)
9. When docked will I be able to see space or will I have
some sort of station interior? (HINT: We want to be able to see our surrounding,
even if optionally)
10. X-L structures in WH?
11. How will refitting work for structures? If I'm under
attack or about to be attacked can I swap my guns or something? Will there be a
delay before new setup will take effect?
Pls add some loot drop. Wormholers don’t attack poses for
"production materials" and can’t stay in system for weeks waiting for
defenders to scoop loot.
MOAR A’s:
1. So far, our
plan is to have them anywhere yes, as long as proximity restrictions are
respected.
6. Structures won't be able to shoot without someone
manning the guns. As CCP Nullarbor mentioned, we have options under our
sleeves to mitigate the risk from this change. Like having a reduced
vulnerability window in specific areas, and / or be able to have NPCs spawn.
7. Fuel is so far only going to be needed to activate the
service modules, those structure shouldn't use fuel on their own, please
refer to our previous blog for more details.
8. Not sure about being able to know docked people, may
be part of scanning mechanics, but open to discussion.
9. When docked you will see surrounding space.
10. Yes, ideally we want all structure sizes and types
everywhere. There may be gampeplay restrictions on them and / or their
respective modules if needed however.
11. Refitting will most likely drain capacitor (like
on ships) so while you could do it in combat, this would not be advisable.
EVEN MOAR Q’s:
1) However, will destroying these new M-XL class structures
generate killmails?
2) When it comes to finding them in space, I agree with
other posters that they should not necessarily need probes to scan down.
However, maybe make this dependent on a fitted module or rig, where by default
you can find the structure via dscan and directly warping to it, but players
can customize them to require probes to find--for a cost. Say, a "dscan
inhibitor rig" which has relevant drawbacks (e.g., maybe weakens the
defenses or reduces the benefits the citadel gives) but then adds the requirement
of combat probes to find the structure?
3) When it comes to giving player citadels benefits for
trading above NPC stations, I would suggest (as a trader myself) raising the
default NPC tax rate on stations. I think something this harsh is needed
because it would be the only thing that would--personally--get a player like
myself to trade in a player-run market, or start my own. However, how will it
work in the market itself? Will public citadels in the region with sell
orders--say, seeing nanite paste--appear on the market search, where I can then
set destination to this public citadel?
4) Would it be possible to anchor two citadels close enough
to one another so that they can fight each other? Citadel versus Citadel pvp??!
That would be pretty fun and would open up a lot of gameplay options,
especially in WH evictions.
5) Any thoughts yet about how the market will be seeded with
the relevant structures and modules? Regular blueprint sales in NPC stations,
for instance, or will there also be any BPCs that drop, say, for a Serpentis L
Citadel which, like faction towers currently, give certain bonuses above the
regular towers etc.?
EVEN MOAR A’s:
1. Yes (…destroying these new M-XL class structures
generate killmails)
2. I think we will show them on the onboard scanner to
warp to.
3. Market will come a bit later and we'll have a detailed
blog about how that will work but yes we reduced market tax will be a good
incentive to use a player built market over the NPC ones.
4. No, because of so many reasons… (Citadel
versus Citadel pvp??!)
5. That's a bit early to say, we have a lot of options for
new industry here building the structures and all the modules.
AGAIN WITH THE Q’s:
1) However, will destroying these new M-XL class structures
generate killmails?
2) When it comes to finding them in space, I agree with
other posters that they should not necessarily need probes to scan down.
However, maybe make this dependent on a fitted module or rig, where by default
you can find the structure via dscan and directly warping to it, but players
can customize them to require probes to find--for a cost. Say, a "dscan inhibitor
rig" which has relevant drawbacks (e.g., maybe weakens the defenses or
reduces the benefits the citadel gives) but then adds the requirement of combat
probes to find the structure?
3) When it comes to giving player citadels benefits for
trading above NPC stations, I would suggest (as a trader myself) raising the
default NPC tax rate on stations. I think something this harsh is needed
because it would be the only thing that would--personally--get a player like
myself to trade in a player-run market, or start my own. However, how will it
work in the market itself? Will public citadels in the region with sell
orders--say, seeing nanite paste--appear on the market search, where I can then
set destination to this public citadel?
4) Would it be possible to anchor two citadels close enough
to one another so that they can fight each other? Citadel versus Citadel pvp??!
That would be pretty fun and would open up a lot of gameplay options, especially
in WH evictions.
5) Any thoughts yet about how the market will be seeded with
the relevant structures and modules? Regular blueprint sales in NPC stations,
for instance, or will there also be any BPCs that drop, say, for a Serpentis L
Citadel which, like faction towers currently, give certain bonuses above the
regular towers etc.?
HENCE MOAR OF THE A’s:
1. Why shouldn't they generate killmails? We know how much
you guys like your killmail states.
2. Been answered before.
3. You've heard it first here guys! If we end up raising
taxing on NPC stations, you will have Sven Viko VIkolander to thank for it!
Twisted More seriously, player structures should be treated exactly like NPC
stations if they're set as public, or if you have personal access to them.
4. Short answer: no. Long answer: noooooooooooooooooo.
Because those don't use HP mechanics to be taken down, thanks to the Entosis
module, what would you achieve by having them shoot each other? They will not
be affected by raw damage.
5. We will most likely seed blueprints for Tech I versions
from the NPC market. Faction variants will drop as loot and LP stores. Tech II
variants can be invented. Those act as ships remember, thus they should be
acquired in a similar way.
Lastly…
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
“w-space was never
meant to be occupied. You should not be living there.”
Obil Que wrote:
“I'll let you read
CCPs thoughts on wormhole occupation yourself”
I was going to post
this myself!
Here’s the important
part:
Quote:
“We are absolutely
happy with how players have taken the wormhole feature and run with it over the
last five years and we look forward to many more years of watching the
adventures of the wormhole community with joy and awe. Anyone telling you
otherwise is woefully mistaken.”
Personally I love
wormhole space, and try to make sure all those crazy bob worshippers are always
considered :)
Fly Reckless and see you in the Sky… =/|)=